[Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

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Ndreare
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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#21 Postby Ndreare » Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:59 pm

I would add if our line Walker started with 25 PPE at the Ley Line he could start this with 75 PPE and that would allow a lot more growth or a lot more duplicates.
If not rushed he could have 30+ duplicates as size 40 Dragon form himself and each of them size 27 ish.

The dragons toughness is 84 (30) with the armor spell
The dragons damage is average 61 AP8 based on d12+38+3d8 from 30 levels of growth on top of the size 8 dragon. His Haste gives him two actions and boost trait can add to his fighting once stable.
Last edited by Ndreare on Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#22 Postby Café Truck » Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:13 pm

Fponkdamn wrote:Not an entire build, but it should be noted that Mystics have access to Shape Change, Summon Ally, and Warrior's Gift - which are the three most BONKERS powers with the Born A Hero setting rule. As has been clarified by Clint, all three of those powers count as the LEGENDARY version if taken at character creation with Born a Hero, which means a starting Mystic that takes them can TURN INTO A DRAGON, summon HALF A DOZEN COPIES OF HIMSELF, and give himself ANY TWO COMBAT EDGES OF ANY RANK any time he wants. Pretty nuts.


But oh so fun. I have a Mystic character in our game now with a Druidic background who takes full advantage of shape change (limited to animal forms). I haven't had too many opportunities to stack shape change with warrior's gift (we have some pretty potent melee characters in the party as it is), but it is a great combination.

It is very easy to burn up a lot of PPE in short order by using the higher ranking animal forms, though. Fortunately, ley lines are pretty helpful and the heroes journey tables gave my character a pretty hefty PPE and recharge boost.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#23 Postby KLM » Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:37 pm

Starting with PA pilot, with a Triax Predator armor.

Sell heavy laser separately (price 5 million, so getting 2,5 is reasonable) then the armor itself - then buy a new one for 1,9 million from you local Triax outlet.

Repeat until done :)
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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#24 Postby Ndreare » Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:38 am

KLM wrote:Starting with PA pilot, with a Triax Predator armor.

Sell heavy laser separately (price 5 million, so getting 2,5 is reasonable) then the armor itself - then buy a new one for 1,9 million from you local Triax outlet.

Repeat until done :)


Excellent, how did I miss it.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#25 Postby Saevus » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:41 pm

The grease stained mechanic looks you over, the piece of straw in his mouth twitching from side to side, as he listens to your sales pitch on your brand new heavy laser. As you finish your sales pitch, he spits a tar black blob of spittle into a cup and wipes his lip. "Well now, its gonna have ta be like this. Market fer them there heavy lasers is done crashed, can't do much for ya. Some feller done sold them up and down this here trade route. I hear the price from here to Chi-town done crashed. Best I can offer ya is 50,000 credits. Take it or leave it, but that's the best deal you gone get fer that hardware."

More seriously, an oddity of throwing the heaviest weapons on those frames.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#26 Postby Hendell » Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:12 pm

I am inclined to assume that the vast majority of 'heavy' lasers and rail guns so far listed in the books are typos and should be medium versions or even light. Either that or we just have not seen the 'Very Heavy', and 'Big Gulp' class of weapons and those will show up in later power creep, er expansions, once the really powerful Palladium Rifts stuff starts to be translated into SR.
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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#27 Postby Saevus » Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:52 pm

Hendell wrote:I am inclined to assume that the vast majority of 'heavy' lasers and rail guns so far listed in the books are typos and should be medium versions or even light. Either that or we just have not seen the 'Very Heavy', and 'Big Gulp' class of weapons and those will show up in later power creep, er expansions, once the really powerful Palladium Rifts stuff starts to be translated into SR.



I agree, 90% of everything is awesome, those "heavies" are just in the wrong spots IMO. Lots of discussion on it. I'm still on the fence and I've got 3 more weeks of one shots and fun games before my main Rifts campaigns can kick off, but I'll do something to them.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#28 Postby Golfballfred » Thu Aug 18, 2016 9:21 pm

KLM wrote:Starting with PA pilot, with a Triax Predator armor.

Sell heavy laser separately (price 5 million, so getting 2,5 is reasonable) then the armor itself - then buy a new one for 1,9 million from you local Triax outlet.

Repeat until done :)



Heavy laser is worth 1mil, but the predator starts with a medium laser worth 500k.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#29 Postby Malifice » Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:41 pm

KLM wrote:Starting with PA pilot, with a Triax Predator armor.

Sell heavy laser separately (price 5 million, so getting 2,5 is reasonable) then the armor itself - then buy a new one for 1,9 million from you local Triax outlet.

Repeat until done :)


You might want to look at the new updates. Preadtor laser is only medium now, and laser costs went down markedly.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#30 Postby shinryu » Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:26 pm

Here's a bit of a subtle (but effective) one if you use the SFC rules for weapon mounts: according to the "mounting slugthrowers" section a pair of heavy machine-gun sized weapons take up a mod slot, so with a bit of duct tape you could have paired TX-50 rail guns (2d8+4 damage, + 1 to hit), paired heavy plasma ejectors (3d10 + 5 damage, +1 to hit) or pulsed plasma ejectors (3d10 + 2 damage, + 1 to hit, ROF 3) in one Mod slot.

But wait, there's more! SFC says that the mods for linked weapons are halved, so go ahead and just jam a quad-linked version in there while you're at it. The 2d8+6 quad rail guns (sudden Quake flashback QUAD DAAAAAMMAGE RAILGUNS) do have a lower ROF, range and AP than a mini-railgun, but they also have a +2 to hit and two points higher average damage, so they should in fact be more effective at half the Mod slot cost. As for the quad plasma ejector, that four-barrel beauty does a delightful 3d10 + 7 damage; while there's no AP, an average damage of 25 is pretty decent. The quad plasma pulse cannons hit as hard as a Medium railgun without the AP, but with +2 to hit, so that ain't bad either. On a raise, either plasma gun combo could potentially wound a UAR-1 (about 12% per shot for the quad pulse ejectors and about 17% for the quad heavy plasma guns) and if it's on a smaller vehicle or robot armor it's probably going to get that raise when the Size bonus is factored in. Again, all of this in one Mod slot.

Edit: Oh, you can get the same effect as the quad pulse plasma ejectors and an SBT with quad automatic grenade launchers loaded with plasma. Merry Christmas.

Finally, just for some Mega-dumbage, how about one Mod for quad-linked Thunderer Combat Hammers in one in the mix for close-up fun and excitement. +2 to hit and (on, say, a Jager to take advantage of the speed) d12 + d10 + 3d6 + 8 damage averages out to 34 or 38 with a (very likely) raise. This combo is stretching it but it's not explicitly forbidden to link melee weapons...
Last edited by shinryu on Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#31 Postby shinryu » Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:35 pm

Saevus wrote:The grease stained mechanic looks you over, the piece of straw in his mouth twitching from side to side, as he listens to your sales pitch on your brand new heavy laser. As you finish your sales pitch, he spits a tar black blob of spittle into a cup and wipes his lip. "Well now, its gonna have ta be like this. Market fer them there heavy lasers is done crashed, can't do much for ya. Some feller done sold them up and down this here trade route. I hear the price from here to Chi-town done crashed. Best I can offer ya is 50,000 credits. Take it or leave it, but that's the best deal you gone get fer that hardware."

More seriously, an oddity of throwing the heaviest weapons on those frames.


All according to the NGR's cunning and evil plans to destabilize the Coalition States...

"In tragic news, D-Bee juvenile criminals have begun using cheap German laser cannons mounted on tricycles and food carts to aggressively attack the Coalition's brave Skycycle patrols over the 'Burbs of Chi-Town. Emperor Prosek is desperately seeking the assistance of Free Quebec's Glitter Boy legions to address the problem, but was told by the Free Quebec ambassador in German *bad machine translation voice* 'We are collaborators! Suck it!'"

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#32 Postby KLM » Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:58 pm

shinryu wrote:But wait, there's more! SFC says that the mods for linked weapons are halved, so go ahead and just jam a quad-linked version in there while you're at it. The 2d8+6 quad rail guns (sudden Quake flashback QUAD DAAAAAMMAGE RAILGUNS)


Ever pictured mentally the X-500 Foragers' upgraded version with quad belly plasma gun?

The X-501 HELLCOW.
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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#33 Postby archus » Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:52 am

Fponkdamn wrote:Not an entire build, but it should be noted that Mystics have access to Shape Change, Summon Ally, and Warrior's Gift - which are the three most BONKERS powers with the Born A Hero setting rule. As has been clarified by Clint, all three of those powers count as the LEGENDARY version if taken at character creation with Born a Hero, which means a starting Mystic that takes them can TURN INTO A DRAGON, summon HALF A DOZEN COPIES OF HIMSELF, and give himself ANY TWO COMBAT EDGES OF ANY RANK any time he wants. Pretty nuts.

That can't be right.... Great Googly Moogly it is.

You will probably want quickness to do it faster.

I'm not fond of choices that very in utility based on when chosen; but this is orders of magnitude mightier than choosing a skill costing differently at creation and advancements. Those powers are basically "must choose if on your list and if at all possible, add them to your list" because you unlock all the things they can do right away and are the only powers that work that way (there are no other legendary powers to compare them too). The comment Clint made about PP being a problem certainly isn't a problem for a LLW near a ley line (isn't that much a problem for other arcane casters either).

Not only does that above selection of powers make the LLW/Mystic near a ley line a better dragon than the hatchling will ever be... it makes them an army of dragons.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#34 Postby Ndreare » Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:40 am

archus wrote:
Fponkdamn wrote:Not an entire build, but it should be noted that Mystics have access to Shape Change, Summon Ally, and Warrior's Gift - which are the three most BONKERS powers with the Born A Hero setting rule. As has been clarified by Clint, all three of those powers count as the LEGENDARY version if taken at character creation with Born a Hero, which means a starting Mystic that takes them can TURN INTO A DRAGON, summon HALF A DOZEN COPIES OF HIMSELF, and give himself ANY TWO COMBAT EDGES OF ANY RANK any time he wants. Pretty nuts.

That can't be right.... Great Googly Moogly it is.

You will probably want quickness to do it faster.

I'm not fond of choices that very in utility based on when chosen; but this is orders of magnitude mightier than choosing a skill costing differently at creation and advancements. Those powers are basically "must choose if on your list and if at all possible, add them to your list" because you unlock all the things they can do right away and are the only powers that work that way (there are no other legendary powers to compare them too). The comment Clint made about PP being a problem certainly isn't a problem for a LLW near a ley line (isn't that much a problem for other arcane casters either).

Not only does that above selection of powers make the LLW/Mystic near a ley line a better dragon than the hatchling will ever be... it makes them an army of dragons.


Which was key in my munchkin build above.
Dragon form, Growth and Summoning duplicates of myself can make for an awesomely broken build. The stacking if Quickness and Boost Traits was just icing on the cake.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#35 Postby pkitty » Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:59 pm

Fponkdamn wrote:Not an entire build, but it should be noted that Mystics have access to Shape Change, Summon Ally, and Warrior's Gift - which are the three most BONKERS powers with the Born A Hero setting rule. As has been clarified by Clint, all three of those powers count as the LEGENDARY version if taken at character creation with Born a Hero, which means a starting Mystic that takes them can TURN INTO A DRAGON, summon HALF A DOZEN COPIES OF HIMSELF, and give himself ANY TWO COMBAT EDGES OF ANY RANK any time he wants. Pretty nuts.

Yeeeeeah, we ignored that interpretation that early on, because that's freakin insane. We see Born A Hero as simply giving "early access" to Edges and Powers, if you can tack 'em on during character creation -- the idea of also treating your PC as (effectively) Legendary is completely broken. (Sorry, Clint!)
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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#36 Postby kurseteller » Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:08 am

Nope, just rifts. But a psi stalker would seriously rune you day and so would a juicer in a surprise attack. I kinda like the over the too ness of it. But it does need prep time.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#37 Postby Freemage » Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:10 pm

Also, if this became the 'preferred tactic' of the player, that's just begging for a Rift-storm of the magic-negating variety to roll through. Not every time, of course, but just often enough to make the player at least have some sort of alternate strategy in mind.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#38 Postby Ndreare » Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:12 pm

Wasn't the point to post min maxed characters and avoid game balance questions?

We have millions of opportunities for those discussions, let's use this one for fun stuff.
:-(

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#39 Postby dentris » Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:21 pm

Yep. Let's assume most of these ideas will not last one second with any half-decent Gammasters.

Feel free to start a new threat to discuss game balance and potential fixes and leave this place for pure madness and fun.
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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#40 Postby Ndreare » Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:48 pm

Has anyone else had a player build
Cyber knight
Fighting d12
Cyber-kenetic combat -2 to technology based attack rolls
Block +1 Parry (bonus from intense combat training)
Improved Block +1 Party (bonus from intense combat training)
Dodge -1 to be hit with ranged attacks (hindrance)
Weapon Master Psi-Sword +1 Parry (hindrance)
Master of Arms Psi-Sword +1 Parry (hindrance)
Master Psionic (experience & wisdom tables roll 15)
Improved Dodge -1 to be hit with ranged attacks (training roll 16)
Second Nature on Deflection (Psionics table 11)

This guy's basic Parry is 12 he is -2 to be hit with ranged attacks, an additional -2 to be hit with technology and once he activated Mega Deflection he is -6 more to be hit.
In melee a character will have to roll a 18 to hit him with claws, a 20 to hit him with a vibro blade .
At range you need a 12 to hit him or if the attack uses technology you need a 14!


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