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[SR] Mods, Robot Armor and Dual-Linked Weapons

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:13 pm
by Café Truck
How does one go about determining how many mods a dual-linked weapon system uses up? For instance, the Gunwolf Robot Armor has dual-linked Medium Rail Guns. A single Medium Rail Gun is 4 mods. How many is a dual-linked system? Surely not 8 mods, which seems like a high price for a comparatively moderate benefit (+1 Shooting and +2 damage is nice, but not worth the "cost" of a second Rail Gun).

Is this in one of the books somewhere? I'm not finding it in Tomorrow Legion or SWEE.

Re: [SR] Mods, Robot Armor and Dual-Linked Weapons

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:06 pm
by Brickulos
Linked systems are half of the total number of mods of the constituent weapons.

Re: [SR] Mods, Robot Armor and Dual-Linked Weapons

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:14 pm
by Café Truck
Brickulos wrote:Linked systems are half of the total number of mods of the constituent weapons.


So, a dual-linked Medium Rail Gun system would be 6 mods (4 for the first + 2 for the linked), correct?

Which book is that in?

Thanks!

Re: [SR] Mods, Robot Armor and Dual-Linked Weapons

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:20 pm
by Brickulos
No the total mod cost is 4. That's based on the Scifi Companion.

Re: [SR] Mods, Robot Armor and Dual-Linked Weapons

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:38 pm
by Freemage
Brickulos wrote:No the total mod cost is 4. That's based on the Scifi Companion.


Just to comprehend--dual linked weapons take up no more mods than the original weapon? I'm trying to comprehend, in that case, why you wouldn't have ALL dual-linked weapons (or quad-linked, assuming the math continues in that vein), so long as budget was no object....

Re: [SR] Mods, Robot Armor and Dual-Linked Weapons

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:06 pm
by Brickulos
The cost of the equipment itself is prohibitive enough

Re: [SR] Mods, Robot Armor and Dual-Linked Weapons

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:11 pm
by Café Truck
Freemage wrote:
Brickulos wrote:No the total mod cost is 4. That's based on the Scifi Companion.


Just to comprehend--dual linked weapons take up no more mods than the original weapon? I'm trying to comprehend, in that case, why you wouldn't have ALL dual-linked weapons (or quad-linked, assuming the math continues in that vein), so long as budget was no object....


Wow. That is... surprising.

Re: [SR] Mods, Robot Armor and Dual-Linked Weapons

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:51 pm
by Freemage
Brickulos wrote:The cost of the equipment itself is prohibitive enough


Until the first time you salvage something. Even at the number I suggested in another thread (5-10% depending on condition), salvage of gear in this game is going to mean you get to the point of being able to buy almost anything by Seasoned, unless the GM is actively trying to make the world unrealistic (by having all salvaged gear automatically be completely destroyed).

And that certainly doesn't explain why EVERY weapon in the CS military isn't dual- or quad-linked. They've made it pretty clear that 'money is no object' when it comes to addressing the D-Bee threat. (Of course, doing this would just up the value of salvage, increasing the problem of the prior paragraph.)

Re: [SR] Mods, Robot Armor and Dual-Linked Weapons

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:20 pm
by ValhallaGH
Freemage wrote:
Brickulos wrote:No the total mod cost is 4. That's based on the Scifi Companion.

Just to comprehend--dual linked weapons take up no more mods than the original weapon? I'm trying to comprehend, in that case, why you wouldn't have ALL dual-linked weapons (or quad-linked, assuming the math continues in that vein), so long as budget was no object....

Correct, and Quad-Linked only takes up the mods of two weapons. Quad-Linked Fixed systems take up as many mods as a turret with the base weapon system.
For the "claymore variant" of a Hunter Mobile Gun, just replace the heavy rail gun with a fixed-front, quad-linked heavy rail gun. Face "front towards enemy" and blow them to pieces. :cannon:

Freemage wrote:And that certainly doesn't explain why EVERY weapon in the CS military isn't dual- or quad-linked.

Probably for most of the same reasons that not all modern direct fire weapons are linked. Ignoring cost issues, there are still power flow, control system, bulk and visibility, logistics and resupply (all that extra ammunition being fired), and the design philosophy of the people designing the systems.
All of those issues will factor into vehicle design and armament.

Re: [SR] Mods, Robot Armor and Dual-Linked Weapons

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:01 pm
by Freemage
ValhallaGH wrote:
Freemage wrote:
Brickulos wrote:No the total mod cost is 4. That's based on the Scifi Companion.

Just to comprehend--dual linked weapons take up no more mods than the original weapon? I'm trying to comprehend, in that case, why you wouldn't have ALL dual-linked weapons (or quad-linked, assuming the math continues in that vein), so long as budget was no object....

Correct, and Quad-Linked only takes up the mods of two weapons. Quad-Linked Fixed systems take up as many mods as a turret with the base weapon system.
For the "claymore variant" of a Hunter Mobile Gun, just replace the heavy rail gun with a fixed-front, quad-linked heavy rail gun. Face "front towards enemy" and blow them to pieces. :cannon:

Freemage wrote:And that certainly doesn't explain why EVERY weapon in the CS military isn't dual- or quad-linked.

Probably for most of the same reasons that not all modern direct fire weapons are linked. Ignoring cost issues, there are still power flow, control system, bulk and visibility, logistics and resupply (all that extra ammunition being fired), and the design philosophy of the people designing the systems.
All of those issues will factor into vehicle design and armament.


See, to me, that list is the sort of thing you'd expect to be abstracted into the Mods cost for the weapons. Ie, just like Encumbrance is more than weight, "Mods" is more than physical space--it's also engineering issues. I do think I'm going to houserule "half again" for Dual-Linked, and Quad-linked counts as three of the base weapon.

Re: [SR] Mods, Robot Armor and Dual-Linked Weapons

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:03 pm
by Clint
Freemage wrote:Until the first time you salvage something. Even at the number I suggested in another thread (5-10% depending on condition), salvage of gear in this game is going to mean you get to the point of being able to buy almost anything by Seasoned, unless the GM is actively trying to make the world unrealistic (by having all salvaged gear automatically be completely destroyed).


Being able to "buy almost anything" doesn't mean that thing exists to be bought. The players are surely never going to have the money of the Coalition or NGR to be able to fund the design and production of their own specialized suit of robot armor which has a bunch of dual-linked weapons. Heck, they couldn't even afford the R&D necessary to modify an existing robot for conversion from single weapon to dual-linked, much less the actual work it would entail.

The point being, the number of actual Mods a dual-linked weapon takes up is irrelevant in the setting. If replacing weapons "Mod for Mod" as per the book, then a set of dual-linked Mod 4 weapons could only be replaced with another set of dual-linked Mod 4 weapons.

Freemage wrote:And that certainly doesn't explain why EVERY weapon in the CS military isn't dual- or quad-linked. They've made it pretty clear that 'money is no object' when it comes to addressing the D-Bee threat.


If positing a suggestion that would not "make the world unrealistic," then it stands that the concept of "money is no object" to the Coalition is obviously equally unrealistic. They clearly must have an actual economy, not some magical never-ending bag of gold. And a nation ruled by "tactics of propaganda, disinformation, and ignorance" isn't the most trustworthy source for their actual stance on an issue. Money is an object, and as with any object, it's use, even by a very wealthy country, has to be balanced against its availability.

So while Prosek may say "Money is no object to end the D-Bee threat!" The Minister of Finance might say, "Per the Emperor, money is no object to end the D-Bee threat...but you're still expected to come in under budget." ;)

Re: [SR] Mods, Robot Armor and Dual-Linked Weapons

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:32 am
by Café Truck
Clint wrote: Being able to "buy almost anything" doesn't mean that thing exists to be bought. The players are surely never going to have the money of the Coalition or NGR to be able to fund the design and production of their own specialized suit of robot armor which has a bunch of dual-linked weapons. Heck, they couldn't even afford the R&D necessary to modify an existing robot for conversion from single weapon to dual-linked, much less the actual work it would entail.

The point being, the number of actual Mods a dual-linked weapon takes up is irrelevant in the setting. If replacing weapons "Mod for Mod" as per the book, then a set of dual-linked Mod 4 weapons could only be replaced with another set of dual-linked Mod 4 weapons.


Ok, I can dig this. The limitation is in the role playing instead of just the mechanics. I'm still not perfectly clear on why the mechanics work the way they do, but at least there is something to prevent every weapon system from being dual-linked (especially laser and ion weapons, which often don't need to worry about ammo).

Re: [SR] Mods, Robot Armor and Dual-Linked Weapons

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:59 pm
by Clint
Café Truck wrote:
Clint wrote:The point being, the number of actual Mods a dual-linked weapon takes up is irrelevant in the setting. If replacing weapons "Mod for Mod" as per the book, then a set of dual-linked Mod 4 weapons could only be replaced with another set of dual-linked Mod 4 weapons.


Ok, I can dig this. The limitation is in the role playing instead of just the mechanics. I'm still not perfectly clear on why the mechanics work the way they do, but at least there is something to prevent every weapon system from being dual-linked (especially laser and ion weapons, which often don't need to worry about ammo).


Well to clarify a bit and hopefully avoid any confusion (my last post was a bit late and perhaps not as clear as it could be), the key is that the number of Mods used for linking weapons comes from the SFC not SR. The actual rules from the setting only allow for swapping out weapons Mod for Mod, not changing the linked or not-linked status of those weapons.

Meaning there is a limitation in mechanics based on what's allowed for the setting. It's only when trying to apply rules from outside that it becomes an "issue," but that can happen with any externally applied rules. Moreso when the baseline is a setting "cranked to 11" that doesn't fall within any established power levels.

Hope that's a bit clearer and doesn't muddy things up even more. :?

Re: [SR] Mods, Robot Armor and Dual-Linked Weapons

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:22 pm
by Freemage
Clint wrote:
Café Truck wrote:
Clint wrote:The point being, the number of actual Mods a dual-linked weapon takes up is irrelevant in the setting. If replacing weapons "Mod for Mod" as per the book, then a set of dual-linked Mod 4 weapons could only be replaced with another set of dual-linked Mod 4 weapons.


Ok, I can dig this. The limitation is in the role playing instead of just the mechanics. I'm still not perfectly clear on why the mechanics work the way they do, but at least there is something to prevent every weapon system from being dual-linked (especially laser and ion weapons, which often don't need to worry about ammo).


Well to clarify a bit and hopefully avoid any confusion (my last post was a bit late and perhaps not as clear as it could be), the key is that the number of Mods used for linking weapons comes from the SFC not SR. The actual rules from the setting only allow for swapping out weapons Mod for Mod, not changing the linked or not-linked status of those weapons.

Meaning there is a limitation in mechanics based on what's allowed for the setting. It's only when trying to apply rules from outside that it becomes an "issue," but that can happen with any externally applied rules. Moreso when the baseline is a setting "cranked to 11" that doesn't fall within any established power levels.

Hope that's a bit clearer and doesn't muddy things up even more. :?


And this now makes total sense to me. Thanks for the clari, Clint!

Re: [SR] Mods, Robot Armor and Dual-Linked Weapons

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:13 pm
by Café Truck
Clint wrote: Well to clarify a bit and hopefully avoid any confusion (my last post was a bit late and perhaps not as clear as it could be), the key is that the number of Mods used for linking weapons comes from the SFC not SR. The actual rules from the setting only allow for swapping out weapons Mod for Mod, not changing the linked or not-linked status of those weapons.

Meaning there is a limitation in mechanics based on what's allowed for the setting. It's only when trying to apply rules from outside that it becomes an "issue," but that can happen with any externally applied rules. Moreso when the baseline is a setting "cranked to 11" that doesn't fall within any established power levels.

Hope that's a bit clearer and doesn't muddy things up even more. :?


Clearer than mud. :) Thanks!